Showing posts with label Trinity. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Trinity. Show all posts

Tuesday, 24 October 2023

The Trinity Test

 The Trinity Test










Here is a simple but effective test.

Replace the word 'God' in the bible with 'Trinity' (or Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and then read a random collection of verses that have the word God in them.

E.g., John 14:1
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

OK, so trust in the (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and also in me. That makes 4. Who is 'me', if the son is already mentioned?

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So the Trinity so loved the world that the Trinity gave his son. That makes 4. Given this reasoning there must be 2 sons.

Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

So the Trinity is the Father of Jesus. But wait isn't Jesus part of the Trinity?

All verses that mention God and his son are rendered meaningless with a Trinitarian understanding. But Trinitarians do actually interpret God in these verses as the Father out of necessity, but not in the verses that do not mention the son.

E.g., 1 John 2:17
The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

A Trinitarian would most likely say that this was the Father, Son, & Spirit.

But they would also probably say that the following verse is only the Father.

Revelation 1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Isn't that the weirdest thing. God is the Trinity except when the son is also mentioned. Coincidence or simply picking and choosing the meaning depending on what their itching ears want to hear?

I leave you with the following verse:

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 

The Godhead is just God's Family John 17:20-23

The Godhead is just God's Family 
Or
The Trinity is just God's Family













Ephesians 3: 14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 
15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 
17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 
18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 
19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 
21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. Ephesians 3:14-21

What is the Godhead? 

Acts 17:29 Rom 1:20 Col 2:9 the essential being or the nature of God.

Acts 17:29 “Seeing, therefore, that we are the offspring of God, we ought not to imagine that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man

Rom 1:20 20  —for from [the] world’s creation the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity, —so as to render them inexcusable.
The Family 
The Hebrew term mish·pa·chah´ (family), in addition to referring to a household, also means, by extension, a tribe, people, or nation. God is the architect of the family arrangement. He is the Father of his heavenly family and the one to whom ‘all the families on earth owe their name.’ (Eph 3:14, 15

The Greek for family (patria) is derived from the Greek for father (pater).

Paul: “If indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s Church?” the Church being similar to a family.

The Church: A Family, a Fellowship, and the body and the bride of Jesus Christ a people and a temple a virgin these are just some of the metaphors used for the church

God is androgynous being both Father and Mother the holy spirit is the feminine aspect of God. In Hebrew the word spirit is a feminine noun. That is why it can be spoken of as a Mother giving birth. John 3:8

8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Now the holy spirit is a force, the invisible power and energy of the Father by which God is everywhere present. The Spirit is the power of God through which God's Family works. The chosen messengers have been given only the power and authority from Yahweh they need to accomplish their mission. Gen 1:2; Num 11:17; Mt 3:16; John 20:22; Ac 2:4, 17, 33. The Spirit is not a 'separate' or 'other' person. Ac 7:55, 56; Re 7:10 The spirit is God's own radiant power, ever out flowing from Him, by which His 'everywhereness' is achieved. Ps 104:30; 1 Cor 12:4-11.

The Spirit is personal in that it is of God Himself: it is not personal in the sense of being some other person within the Godhead"

Col 2:9 For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus bodily and it will also dwell within us has well:

Eph 3:19 and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge, that YOU may be filled with all the fullness of the Deity.

We like Jesus are to be filled with God fullness

2Peter 1:4 Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these YOU may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.

we will share God's divine nature

2Th 2:14 He called you to this through the good news we declare, so that you may acquire the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We shall share Jesus' glory

John 17:20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

In John 17 we are told that we are to be made perfect in one Christ in us and the Father in Christ

in the Age to come we shall be one with God by sharing his divine nature and being filled with his fullness.

So within the Godhead there is the Father, the son and the church. There are not 3 Gods in the Godhead; nor are there but 3 in manifestation; nevertheless, the Father is God and Jesus is God; and we may add, so are all the brethren of Jesus gods and "a multitude which no man can number." They are a manifold unit - One in many, and many in one. The Supreme Power, or Deity, is the source, fountain, or sole spring of Power. The Godhead is the fountain of the Deity; these other gods are the many streams which form this fountain flow. The springhead of Deity is one, not many; the streams are as numerous as the stars of the universe, in which a manifestation of Deity has a occurred.

It is not "One God in three Gods," and "Three Gods in One;" but one Deity in a countless multitude revealed in the memorial name, and expounded in the mystery of godliness.

One Deity and not three; the Holy Spirit is an emanation from His substance, intensely radiant and all pervading; and that, when focalized under the decrees of His will, things and persons without limit, as to number or nature, are produced.

This multitudinous manifestation of the one Deity - one in many, and many in one, by His spirit - was proclaimed to the Hebrew nation in the formula of Deut. 6:4, "Hear, O lsrael, YAHWEH our ELOHIM is the ONE YAHWEH;" that is, "He who shall be our Mighty Ones is the One who shall be."

Certain Mighty Ones are promised to Israel - pastors according to YAHWEH's heart, who shall feed them with knowledge and understanding; - they will be spirit, because "that which is born of the spirit is spirit." He, the Spirit, the EL, or Power of the universe, self-styled YAHWEH, is their Divine Father. His nature will be theirs; so that they will be consubstantial with Him, as all children are consubstantial with their parents. The Deity will then be manifested in the Sons of Deity; He in them, and they in Him, by the one spirit. And this company of sons, led to glory by the captain of their salvation, is "the ONE who shall be," or "the ONE YAHWEH."


Another way to look at this is to see The Godhead as the house of the Deity; these other gods or elohim are the many Members which form the house or family unit.

House does not always mean a building but it can mean the family

be quiet before you wake the whole house

So the Godhead is the family of the Deity made up of God being both Father-Mother than the son and the wife of the son the Church.

This is the multitudinous manifestation of the one Deity - one in many, and many in one, by His spirit. It is not "One God in three Gods," and "Three Gods in One;" but one Deity in a countless multitude revealed in the memorial name, and give an account of in the mystery of godliness.

The Father the son and the church God's family

Sunday, 29 January 2023

Does the Gospel of Thomas teach the Trinity?

Does the gospel of Thomas teach the trinity


Saying 61 tells us this


61) Jesus said, "Two will rest on a bed: the one will die, and other will live." Salome said to him, "Who are You, man, that You, as though from the One, have come up on my couch and eaten from my table?" Jesus said to her, "I am He who exists from the Undivided One. I was given some of the things of my Father." <Salome said,> "I am Your disciple." <Jesus said to her,> "Therefore I say, if he is <undivided>, he will be filled with light, but if he is divided, he will be filled with darkness." 
(Thomas O. Lambdin (1988)


The Undivided one is the Father Jesus was given some of the things of his Father


Therefore Jesus and the Undivided Father are not the same person

In Logion 61 of the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus engages in a conversation with Salome regarding the nature of his identity. Salome asks Jesus who he is, expressing surprise that he has come to her couch and eaten from her table. Jesus responds by stating that he comes from the Undivided One and has been given some of the things of his Father.

From this logion, it can be inferred that Jesus and the Undivided One (referring to the Father) are distinct entities. Jesus speaks of receiving things from his Father, indicating a relationship between them. This logion does not explicitly address the concept of the Trinity, nor does it provide detailed theological explanations about the nature of Jesus' relationship with the Father.

It is worth noting that interpretations of this logion may vary among different Christian traditions and theological perspectives. Some groups, such as the Christadelphians, interpret this logion as supporting their rejection of the Trinity doctrine. They argue that it emphasizes the distinction between Jesus and the Father and their separate identities.

It is important to recognize that the Gospel of Thomas is one among many texts that contribute to the diverse range of early Christian thought. Different interpretations and understandings of theological concepts, including the Trinity, exist within Christianity.



(13) Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I resemble." Simon Peter said to him, " You are like a just messenger." Matthew said to him, "An intelligent philosopher is what you resemble." Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth utterly will not let me say what you resemble." Jesus said, "I am not your (sing.) teacher, for you have drunk and become intoxicated from the bubbling wellspring that I have personally measured out. And he took him, withdrew, and said three sayings to him. Now, when Thomas came to his companions they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?" Thomas said to them, "If I say to you (plur.) one of the sayings that he said to me, you will take stones and stone me, and fire will come out of the stones and burn you up." 
(Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer 1998)

Notice here that Simon Peter and Matthew describe Jesus as a 
just messenger or a intelligent philosopher vs the son of the Living God in the canonical gospels 

30) Jesus said, "Where there are three gods, they are gods. Where there are two or one, I am with him."
Translated by Thomas O. Lambdin (from Coptic)

(30) Jesus said "Where there are three, they are without God, and where there is only one, I say, I am with that one."
Translated by Marvin Meyer (from Greek)

The Jews had and worshipped several Gods at that time - Moses had to fight with that fact already and Jesus encountered it again. Even though the Trinity was formed after Jesus' crucifixion - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - it can be assumed that Jesus was aware of the plans for his future, so here Jesus is having a slap against Trinitarian doctrine, declaring that a doctrine of 3 gods is polytheistic if one understands that each of the gods is a separate god. Thus there is only one true god and where there is one god alone Jesus is with that him,

Reading it again,

30) Jesus said, "Where there are three gods, they are gods. Where there are two or one, I am with him."

Jesus is denouncing the idea of the trinity, whether that be 3 in 1 or three separate beings.
To Jesus, there is only the 
Undivided One.

So when I read this I see Jesus denouncing a cluster of three gods, also known as a trinity of gods.

This teaches us that the Father is the Undivided One, the Deity is not divided into 3 persons.

But the Coptic text is corrupted and the Greek like the Coptic is nonsense as well April Deconick in her translation of the GTh "The original Gospel of Thomas in Translation" has reconstructed the text: Jesus says: 
 Jesus said, “Where two or more are gathered in My name, I am with them.”Jesus said, ‘Split a piece of wood or lift a stone, and you will see My Father’s handiwork.”

The interpretation you provided for Logion 30 of the Gospel of Thomas is a valid interpretation within the context of rejecting the Trinitarian doctrine. You argue that Jesus is denouncing the idea of the Trinity and emphasizing the belief in the Undivided One, the oneness of God. This interpretation suggests that Jesus is asserting his unity with the one true God and challenging the concept of multiple gods or a triune God.

However, it's important to note that Logion 30 is subject to different translations and interpretations due to variations in the available manuscripts. The Coptic and Greek versions of the Gospel of Thomas have slight differences in wording and can lead to divergent understandings.

The translation you cited by April DeConick provides an alternative reading where Jesus speaks about being present when two or more are gathered in his name, emphasizing his divine presence in communal worship or spiritual gatherings. This interpretation focuses on the spiritual presence of Jesus rather than directly addressing the concept of the Trinity.

Overall, the Gospel of Thomas is a complex and enigmatic text, and scholars have different viewpoints on its intended meaning and original teachings. The interpretations of individual sayings can vary based on the translation, textual variants, and the theological lens through which they are examined.


77) Jesus said, "It is I who am the light which is above everything. It is I who now am everything. From Me now that everything comes forth, and up to Me did everything reach. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find Me there."

This saying is about the Lord Jesus been give all power and authority in heaven and on earth after his resurrection so this saying is speaking about Jesus' new power of providence over the universe

Thus the Lord can now penetrate everything

77) Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find Me there."

108) Jesus said, "He who will drink from my mouth will become like Me. I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will become revealed to him."

Thus we too can become equal with Jesus this saying plainly states that the believer who drinks from Jesus’ mouth becomes Jesus


The gospel of thomas does not teach the Trinity 
ChatGPT
You are correct that the Gospel of Thomas does not explicitly teach the doctrine of the Trinity as it is understood in traditional Christian theology. The Gospel of Thomas, being a Gnostic text, presents a unique perspective on spiritual teachings and focuses on the inner wisdom and enlightenment gained through gnosis (knowledge).

The doctrine of the Trinity, which states that God is one being existing in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), is a concept that developed within the mainstream Christian tradition over time and is primarily based on interpretations of various biblical texts.

While the Gospel of Thomas contains teachings attributed to Jesus, it does not explicitly address the concept of the Trinity or provide detailed theological explanations in that regard. The emphasis of the text is more on the individual's spiritual journey, self-discovery, and the attainment of inner wisdom.

It is important to recognize that different texts within early Christianity present diverse perspectives, and not all of them delve into the complexities of theological doctrines such as the Trinity. The Gospel of Thomas, in particular, highlights a distinct Gnostic approach to spiritual teachings, focusing on personal revelation and the inner transformation of the individual.

Therefore, if one is seeking explicit teachings on the Trinity, they would typically turn to other canonical texts within the New Testament or later theological writings that address this specific doctrine.



In Logion 13 of the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus engages in a conversation with his disciples regarding their perceptions of him. Simon Peter compares Jesus to a just messenger, and Matthew compares him to an intelligent philosopher. However, when it is Thomas' turn to respond, he states that he cannot adequately express what Jesus resembles.

This logion highlights the diverse perspectives and understandings of Jesus among his disciples. It contrasts with the canonical Gospels where Simon Peter confesses Jesus as the "Messiah, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16). The Gospel of Thomas emphasizes the unique and enigmatic nature of Jesus, suggesting that he cannot be easily confined to a single role or title.

It is important to note that the Gospel of Thomas is a Gnostic text and presents a distinct perspective on Jesus and his teachings. It focuses on the inner spiritual journey and the acquisition of gnosis (knowledge) rather than specific doctrinal beliefs. Consequently, the descriptions given by the disciples in this logion reflect their limited understanding of Jesus at that moment.

The differences in portrayal between the Gospel of Thomas and the canonical Gospels can be attributed to the different theological contexts and intentions of the texts. The canonical Gospels aim to present a comprehensive narrative of Jesus' life, teachings, and identity, while the Gospel of Thomas prioritizes a more esoteric and mystical exploration of Jesus' wisdom and the disciple's quest for enlightenment.


Logion 77 in the Gospel of Thomas emphasizes the all-encompassing presence of Jesus as the light above everything. It speaks to his divine nature and suggests his omnipresence. The saying highlights the spiritual significance of Jesus, who is portrayed as the source from which everything comes forth and to which everything reaches. The imagery of finding Jesus even in the splitting of wood or lifting of a stone conveys the idea of his pervasive presence.

While the BASF provides a framework for understanding the beliefs of specific Christian groups, it does not directly address Logion 77 or offer a specific interpretation of this saying. The interpretation of Logion 77 may vary among different individuals and Christian traditions. It is important to study the saying within the context of the Gospel of Thomas and consider various scholarly interpretations to gain a more comprehensive understanding of its meaning.

The Birmingham Amended Statement of Faith (BASF) is a specific doctrinal statement followed by certain Christian groups, including the Christadelphians. While the BASF provides a framework for understanding their beliefs, it does not directly address or interpret individual sayings from the Gospel of Thomas, such as Logion 77.

Logion 77 in the Gospel of Thomas emphasizes the all-encompassing presence of Jesus as the light above everything. The saying highlights the spiritual significance of Jesus and the idea that everything originates from him and reaches back to him. The imagery of being present in the splitting of wood or lifting of a stone conveys his pervasive presence.

Regarding the belief of Christadelphians, it is true that they do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus. According to their beliefs, Jesus was begotten by God through the Holy Spirit and was a mortal man, sharing in human nature and experiencing the effects of Adam's transgression.

While the BASF provides a theological framework for understanding Christadelphian beliefs, it does not offer a specific interpretation of Logion 77 or address the concept of Jesus as the light above everything. Interpretations of this saying may vary among different individuals and Christian traditions. It is important to study the saying within the context of the Gospel of Thomas and consider various scholarly interpretations to gain a more comprehensive understanding of its meaning.

Certainly. According to the BASF and the Christadelphian belief in God manifestation, Jesus is understood as God with us, God manifested in the flesh. The belief is that Jesus, while being of like nature with mortal man, was begotten of God and inhabited by God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This belief emphasizes that Jesus, during his natural life, shared in the physical nature of humanity, experiencing the effects of Adam's transgression, including death. Jesus is seen as the representative of Adam's disobedient race and the means through which God accomplished His plan of redemption.

In light of this understanding, Logion 77 in the Gospel of Thomas can be seen as expressing the concept of Jesus as the manifestation of God's light that is above everything. It emphasizes the all-encompassing presence and authority of Jesus, who is the source from which everything comes forth and to whom everything reaches. The saying highlights the divine nature and significance of Jesus as the embodiment of God's light and presence in the world.

Saturday, 26 November 2022

Christ pre-existed but Jesus didn't John 1:1-4

Christ pre-existed but Jesus didn't John 1:1-4







In contrast to orthodox Christians, Valentinians did not believe that Christ was joined to Jesus at his birth. Instead, they insisted that Christ became joined to Jesus only at the beginning of his ministry i.e. at his baptism. The dove which descends upon Jesus at the baptism was understtod as Christ descending on Jesus and joining with him (Irenaeus Against Heresies 1:7:2, 1:15:3, 3:16:1, 3:10:3, Excerpts of Theodotus 61:6,26:1 Hippolytus Refutation 6:35:3). Christ is "the Name which came down upon Jesus in the dove and redeemed him" (Excerpts of Theodotus 22:6 cf. Gospel of Philip 70:34-36).Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of God at his baptism in the Jordan.

In the beginning was the LOGOS - (the outward manifestation of the inward thought)
the LOGOS WAS with God. (Yahweh and His Divine Plan could not be separated)
the LOGOS was God - (God and the Logos are one).

Christ, the Word, who “in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth,” therefore pre-existed before the birth of “the body prepared” of the substance of Mary, and which lay dead in the tomb. That body named Jesus, had no existence until developed by the Christ-Power. Federally, indeed, it pre-existed in the loins of Abraham and in Adam, as Levi was in Abraham, and we in Adam, before birth; but not otherwise. (On the Nature of Christ February 22nd, 1867 by 
Eusebia J. Lasius)

The pre-existent Christ, or Deity, was not the less Deity because he veiled himself in flesh, in our “sinful flesh,” or “sin’s flesh,” and styled himself JESUS, or he who shall be Saviour. (Dr. Thomas letter to Robert 
Robert July 17th, 1869)

In reference to those words of Jesus, saying,—“The bread I give for the life of the world is my flesh” (John 6.) For the bread of the Deity is He, who descending out of the heaven, and giveth life to the world.’ This was as much as to say, that the manna was representative of a life-imparting agent from heaven: even the Logos speaking by Jesus. ‘In him’—the Logos, ‘was Life,’ says John ‘and the Life, was the light of men.’ It was this Logos who said, ‘I am the Way and the Truth; the Resurrection and the Life’: ‘I am the Bread of Life,’ or the manna: ‘I came down from heaven’: this is the bread which descendeth from heaven, that a man may eat thereof and not die’ . . . ‘If any man eat of this bread he shall live in the age: and the bread that I (the Logos) will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (Eureka -- Vol 1 -- Chap 2 -- Sec 3: 8. The Hidden Manna)

Jesus was not literally the Word. He was the word "made flesh". (John:14). Jesus is the complete manifestation of the logos - "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Deity bodily." (Col. 2:9). It was the "logos" which was in the beginning with God, not Jesus. When the "word was made flesh" (John 1:14) then, and then only, Jesus became the "Word".
Jesus is called the Word (Rev. 19:13 cf. 1 John 1:1; Luke 1:2) since his doctrine and words came from his Father (John 7:16; 17:14). He was the logos lived out in speech and action, not merely written on scrolls. (wrested scriptures)

Jesus Christ in the day of his weakness, had two sides—the one, DEITY; the other, MAN—the Eternal Christ-Power or the anointing spirit veiled in, and manifested through the flesh created from the ground; which flesh had Willfully transgressed the Divine Law, the penalty of which sent it back into the dust from whence it came. This is Jesus Christ the true Deity, whom to know is life eternal. (Dr. Thomas letter to Robert Robert July 17th, 1869)

This flesh which inhabited Paradise, like all the beasts. Was “very good” of its sort, is described as “sin” and “sin’s flesh,” because it sinned or transgressed the Eden law. Our flesh is the same as Adam’s before he sinned, only the worse for wear: for Paul says that we sinned in him, and he was sinless before he sinned; and we were as much in his loins when he was sinless, as in the act of sinning. His flesh undefiled by sin is constitutionally the same as the flesh of his posterity defiled legally thereby. The Christ-Deity veiled himself in the Adamic nature defiled by sin, in order that he might condemn sin in the flesh and to condemn sin to death in the nature which, although created “very good,” had legally defiled itself by transgression of the Eden law. This purpose would have been defeated if he had veiled himself in a clean nature. (Dr. Thomas letter to Robert Robert July 17th, 1869)

To say that the Man, Jesus, was corporeally clean, or pure, holy, spotless, and undefiled, is in effect to say that he was not “made of a woman;” for Scripture teaches, that nothing born of woman can possibly be clean: but it is testified that he was “born of a woman;” he must therefore necessarily have been born corporeally unclean. Hence, it is written of him in Psalm 51:5, “I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” He therefore prays, “Purge me with sop and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” This prayer has been answered, and he has been “Washed thoroughly from his (corporeal) iniquity, and cleansed from his sin;” so that now he has a clean nature, which is spirit and divine—“the Lord the Spirit”—once dead as to flesh, but now alive as Spirit for evermore.—(Rev. 1:18.) (Dr. Thomas letter to Robert Robert July 17th, 1869)

I believe that Christ pre-existed but Jesus didn't. It may sound complicated but it isn't really.

It's about God Manifestation - ultimately the angels the "focalisations of the Spirit", Jesus Christ and the Saints are all manifestations of God (which is why Jesus says "does it not say in your law Ye are gods?").

The exhortation is that we need to behave like that now, while we are in the flesh, because once the flesh is removed we will only be as much Spirit as has been developed in us.

Tuesday, 1 November 2022

Did Jesus Christ Have Two Mothers? Gospel of Thomas Saying 101

Did Jesus Christ Have Two Mothers? Gospel of Thomas Saying 101





Jesus has two Mothers

Gospel of Thomas Saying 101

Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to Me. And whoever does [not] love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a [disciple] to Me. For My [birth] mother [gave me death], but [My] true [Mother] gave me life." (April DeConick Translation)

"The substance of this saying has already been provided in Saying 56 [55]. Here, however, Jesus explicitly states that he himself hates his (earthly) father and mother (see Saying 96).

Thus the conundrum presented in the saying (hate parents and love parents) is resolved by positing two orders of family and two mothers of Jesus

April DeConick writes For L. 101.3,1 offer a possibility for completing the lacunae (9 or 10 letter spaces) which occurs on the last line at the bottom of p. 49 and the first two letters at the top of p. 50: 'who begot me gave death'. This construction not only fits the lacunae, but also provides contextual sense and offers a complementary parallel to the final clause. So I prefer it over Layton's reconstruction which does not fill the space 'who gave me falsehood'). 

Jesus's birth mother gave him death. Death came by genetic inheritance. for he inherited Adam's nature from Mary's blood, in which Adam's life existed, for the life of all flesh is in the blood thereof

Though the Son of God (by the Spirit) he was the son of man (Adam) by Mary, partaking of the very nature transmitted from Adam through David and Mary

If Christ was born of the spirit, by Mary, was he not spirit and not flesh, on the principle that which is born of the spirit is spirit?   
The question arises from an inaccuracy of words. Jesus was not born of the spirit by Mary but begotten of Mary by the spirit. 

Did God or man give life to Jesus?
Answer: "God himself gives to all mankind life and breath and all things 
 ;" 
consequently the question is not specific enough to make its meaning apparent. 

If it be meant, Did Mary have any participation in the impartation of life to the child born of her, the answer is Yes; for Jesus was the seed of David according to the flesh. Every one having knowledge is aware that in fetal life, the child's life is the mother's life, ministered by her blood through the umbilical cord; and that the child, so to speak, is by this connection built out of her blood. And as "the life of all flesh is in the blood", a child cannot partake of her blood, without partaking of her life. Consequently, Jesus, though developed from a Divine organism, was framed out of his mother's substance, and, consequently, was both Son of man and Son of God

Speaking of the conception and preparation of the Seed, the prophet as a typical person, says, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psalm 51:5). This is nothing more than affirming that he was born of sinful flesh; and not of the pure and incorruptible angelic nature. 

The nature of Mary was as unclean as that of other women; and therefore could give birth only to "a body" like her own, though especially "prepared of God" (Heb. 10:5). Had Mary's nature been immaculate, as her idolatrous worshippers contend, an immaculate body would have been born of her; which, therefore, would not have answered the purpose of God; which was to condemn sin in the flesh; a thing that could not have been accomplished, if there were no sin there. 

The apostle says, "God made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); and this he explains in another place by saying, that "He sent his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3) in the offering of his body once (Heb. 10:10,12,14). Sin could not have been condemned in the body of Jesus, if it had not existed there. His body was as unclean as the bodies of those for whom he died; for he was born of a woman, and "not one" can bring a clean body out of a defiled body; for "that", says Jesus himself, "which is born of the flesh is flesh" (John 3:6).

If Christ had been a son of Adam merely, he would have been a sinner, and, therefore, unfit for sacrificial purposes. On the other hand, if he had been clothed with angelic or immaculate nature, he would have been equally disqualified, inasmuch as it was necessary that the sinning nature should suffer in him. The combination of condemned human nature with personal sinlessness was effected through divine power begetting a son from Mary's substance. A "Lamb of God," was thus produced, guileless from his paternity, and yet inheriting the human sin-nature of his mother.

The question needs to be asked who is Jesus's true Mother?

It is the comforter the holy spirit. In Hebrew the word spirit is a feminine noun. That is why it can be spoken of as a Mother giving birth. 

Jesus needed to be saved from death Hebrews 5:7 this his true Mother did at his resurrection 

Thus the holy spirit is Jesus' mother by his resurrection from the dead or by being born of the spirit or born again.

Romans 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Jesus came in the flesh of the seed of David when he was resurrected from the dead by the spirit of holiness he was born of the spirit

John 3:6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel because I told you, YOU people must be born again.
8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone that has been born from the spirit.”

Notice the feminine description of the spirit in v8 one is born of the spirit. to use the langue of being born is describing the holy spirit as a mother

Mt 11:19 But wisdom is justified by her children.

Galatians 4:26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,

Therefore the holy spirit is a feminine aspect of God

The holy spirit is a force, the invisible power and energy of the Father by which God is everywhere present. The chosen messengers have been given only the power and authority from Yahweh they need to accomplish their mission. Gen 1:2; Num 11:17; Mt 3:16; John 20:22; Ac 2:4, 17, 33. The Spirit is not a 'separate' or 'other' person. Ac 7:55, 56; Re 7:10 It is God's own radiant power, ever out flowing from Him, by which His 'everywhereness' is achieved. Ps 104:30; 1 Cor 12:4-11.

The Spirit is personal in that it is of God Himself: it is not personal in the sense of being some other person within the Godhead"

The Lord was conceived (born again) from what is imperishable, from God. The [Lord arose] from among the dead. But [He did not come into being as he was. Rather [his body] was [completely] perfect. It was of fleshand this [flesh is indeed] true flesh.¹ [Yet our flesh] is not true, but rather a mirror-image of the true [flesh]. (¹Jn 1:14, 20:27, II-Jn 7; NHS p. 174 (The Gospel of Philip)

Friday, 11 February 2022

Errors Doctrines to be Rejected by Gnostic Christians

Errors Doctrines to be Rejected by Gnostic Christians 



 


Doctrines to be Rejected
(With Explanations Expressed Positively — in italics)

Valentinians and Cathars did not share all what would be classed as the classical Gnostic teachings on the Demiurge, the nature of immortality, and the nature of Christ




 1. We reject that the Bible is only partly the work of inspiration — or if wholly so, contains errors which inspiration has allowed. [The Bible, in its original text, is altogether the work of inspiration, and that God has been the true author of every part of His Word, thereby constituting it infallible — 2Tim. 3:16; 2Pet. 1:19-21.]


 2. We reject that God is three persons. [The doctrine of the trinity being false, it remains that God is a Being of Spirit; the Lord Jesus Christ is His Son, born of the virgin Mary; the Holy Spirit is His power — 1Tim. 2:5; Jn. 1:14; Lk. 24:49.]

To the Cathars, the Holy Trinity is a lie. For the Cathars, Jesus was neither divine nor man. He was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit sent by the good god to show us the way to freedom.

 3. We reject that the Son of God was co-eternal with the Father. [Jesus was begotten of the virgin Mary; he was only “known” beforehand in the mind and purpose of Yahweh from the beginning — Gal. 4:4; Jn. 1:1].




4. We reject that Christ was born with a “free life”. [A “free life” signifies that Christ’s nature was not under Adamic condemnation as is that of all other members of the human race, and that therefore his sacrifice was a substitute for the “lives” of others. However, he needed to obtain redemption himself in order to redeem his “brethren” — Gal 4:4; 1Tim. 2:6; Heb. 9:12.]

We reject the doctrine of docetism

Furthermore, they will say of him that he is unbegotten, though he has been begotten, (that) he does not eat, even though he eats, (that) he does not drink, even though he drinks, (that) he is uncircumcised, though he has been circumcised, (that) he is unfleshly, though he has come in the flesh, (that) he did not come to suffering, <though> he came to suffering, (that) he did not rise from the dead, <though> he arose from the dead. (Melchizedek text from The Nag Hammadi Library)


Odes of Solomon 8:21 
  1. And you who were loved in the Beloved, and you who are kept in Him who lives, and you who are saved in Him who was saved.
42:18
  1. May we also be saved with You, because You are our Savior.
The Gospel of Philip

Jesus appeared at the Jordan River with the fullness of the kingdom of heaven.
He was born before there was birth.
He was anointed once and was anointed anew.
He who was redeemed redeemed the world. 

 5. We reject that Christ’s nature was immaculate, or that he was of a different nature from other men. [Through his birth he inherited a nature sin-affected, and destined to death, being mortal, as all others — Heb. 2:14.]

Heracleon: Fragments from his
Commentary on the Gospel of John


Fragment 10, on John 1:29 (In John 1:29, “The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, ‘Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!’”) John spoke the words, "Lamb of God" as a prophet, but the words, "who takes away the sin of the world" as more than a prophet. The first expression was spoken with reference to his body, the second with reference to Him who was in that body. The lamb is an imperfect member of the genus of sheep; the same being true of the body as compared with the one that dwells in it. Had he meant to attribute perfection to the body he would have spoken of a ram about to be sacrificed.

 6. We reject that the Holy Spirit is a person distinct from the Father. [The Holy Spirit is the exclusive power which emanates only from God to perform His determination — Lk. 24:49.]

The Holy Spirit is a feminine aspect of god

 7. We reject that man has an immortal soul. [The soul of man defines his being, his life, his existence; and is related to his attitude and emotions. He is wholly mortal, and has no immortal essence hereditarily.]

Heracleon: Fragments from his
Commentary on the Gospel of John


Fragment 40, on John 4:46-53 (In John 4:46, “So he came again to Cana in Galilee, where he had made the water wine. And at Capernaum there was an official whose child was ill.) The official was the Craftsman, for he himself ruled like a king over those under him. Because his domain is small and transitory, he was called an “official,” like a petty princeling who is set over a small kingdom by the universal king. The “child” “in Capernaun” is one who is in the lower part of the Middle (i.e. of animate substance), which lies near the sea, that is, which is linked with matter. The child’s proper person was sick, that is, in a condition not in accordance with the child’s proper nature, in ignorance and sins. (In John 4:47, “When he heard that Jesus had come from Judea to Galilee, he went and begged him to come down and heal his child , for it was at the point of death.”) The words “from Judea to Galilee” mean ‘from the Judea above.’. . . By the words “it was at the point of death,” the teaching of those who claim that the soul is immortal is refuted. In agreement with this is the statement that “the body and soul are destoyed in Hell.” (Matthew 10:28) The soul is not immortal, but is possessed only of a disposition towards salvation, for it is the perishable which puts on imperishability and the mortal which puts on immortality when “its death is swallowed up in victory.” (1 Corinthians 15:54)

 8. We reject that man consciously exists in death. [At death, man ceases to exist in every respect. He has no consciousness in death — Ecc. 3:19; Psa. 49:17-20.]

20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

The Gospel of Philip 

Ignorance is the mother of [all evil]. Ignorance leads to [death, because] those who come from [ignorance] neither were nor [are] nor will be.


 9. We reject that the wicked will suffer eternal torture in hell. [The wicked are destined to eternal oblivion in the grave, excepting only those of their number who are answerable to God and will be raised to condemnation, to return eternally to the grave. — 2Thes. 1:8-9.]

A child claims the father’s legacy,
but those who inherit the dead are dead.

Heirs to the living are alive
and are heirs to life and death.

The dead are heirs to nothing.

How can the dead inherit?
Yet if the dead inherits the living,
the living won’t die and the dead will survive.


GENTILES, JEWS, CHRISTIANS

A gentile doesn’t die, never
having been alive to die.



10. We reject that the righteous will ascend to the kingdoms beyond the skies when they die. [None ascend to heaven; the Lord Jesus being the only exception, and in this case for the purpose of his continuing mediatorial work. The righteous await the return of Christ for the bestowal of immortality — Jn . 3:13.]

Yeshua said,
If your leaders tell you, “Look, the kingdom is in heaven,”
then the birds of heaven will precede you.
If they say to you, “It’s in the sea,”
then the fish will precede you.
But the kingdom is inside you and it is outside you.
When you know yourselves,  then you will be known,
and you will understand that you are children of the living father.
But if you do not know yourselves,
then you dwell in poverty and you are poverty.


11. We reject that the devil is a supernatural personal being. 

[The devil is variously manifested as that which falsely “accuses.” It is the manifestation of the ungodly characteristics of sin’s flesh, and will cease to exist when sin is ultimately destroyed — 1Pet. 5:8; Rev. 20:10.]

We reject the doctrine that Yaldabaoth and the Demiurge is the same person

Valentinian never use the word Yaldabaoth 

As we have amply demonstrated, the Demiurge in Valentinianism is quite different in character from the hostile Ialdabaoth familiar from the Sethian school. The Demiurge acts as an intermediary between the higher powers and the material world. The Valentinian view of the world created by the Demiurge is also quite different. According to Valentinian teaching, the world is created to aid the spiritual element to return to the Fullness (pleroma). Its creation was necessitated by the primordial fall into deficiency and suffering.

We reject the doctrine that the Demiurge is evil

The Valentinian teacher Ptolemy strongly criticizes non-Valentinian Gnostics who taught that the Demiurge was evil. In his view, those who view the creator as evil "do not comprehend what was said by the Savior...Only thoughtless people have this idea, people who do not recognize the providence of the creator and so are blind not only the eye of the soul but even in the eye of the body" (Letter to Flora 3:2-6). They are as "completely in error" as orthodox Christians who taught that the Demiurge was the highest God (Letter to Flora 3:2).

In contrast, he and other Valentinians steadfastly maintained that "the creation is not due to a god who corrupts but to one who is just and hates evil" (Letter to Flora 3:6). He carefully distinguished the Demiurge from both God and the Devil. According to Ptolemy, "he is essentially different from these two (God and the Devil) and is between them, he is rightly given the name, Middle" (Letter to Flora 7:4). He is "neither good nor evil and unjust, can properly be called just , since he is the arbitrator of the justice which depends on him" (Letter to Flora 7:5).



12. We reject that the Kingdom of God is “the church.” [The Kingdom of God is a divine political empire to be established on earth at the return of Jesus Christ. — Isa. 2:2-5]




13. We reject that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ merely. [The gospel includes the covenants of promise granted to Abraham and David and involves the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth — Gal. 3:8.]




14. We reject that Christ will not come until the close of the thousand years. [Jesus Christ returns to establish the millennium, and will reign as king during that period — 1Cor. 15:24-29; Rev. 20:6.]


15. We reject that the tribunal of Christ, when he comes, is not for the judgment of saints, but merely to divide among them different degrees of reward. [The Judgment seat of Christ is for the purpose of revealing the motives, actions and characteristics of all the responsible, and to prepare the righteous for the granting of immortality — Rom. 14:10; 2Cor. 5:10.]


16. We reject that the resurrection is confined to the faithful. [The resurrection will involve all who have known the Will of God, including those who have rejected that Will and those who have failed to uphold it in a faithful life — Jn. 12:48; 9:39-41; 15:22; Acts 15:24.]


17. We reject that the dead rise in an immortal state. [The dead come from the grave in the same state as they entered it; they will remain mortal as they appear before the judgment seat.]

Some are afraid that they will ascend from death naked, and they want to climb back to life in their flesh.They are unaware that those who wear their flesh are naked, and those who strip are not naked. “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god.” What will we not inherit? The flesh we wear on us.
But what then will we inherit as our own? The body of Jesus and his blood. And Jesus said, “Whoever will not eat my flesh and drink my blood has no life within him.”  What does he mean? His flesh is the word and blood the holy spirit.
Who has received these has food and drink and clothing. I condemn those who say the flesh won’t rise. Then both are wrong. You say the flesh won’t ascend. Tell me, what will rise so I can honor you? You say spirit in the flesh and light in the flesh. What is the flesh?
You say there is nothing outside the flesh. Then rise in the flesh, since everything exists in it. In this world those wearing garments are better than garments. In heaven the garments are better than the wearers.




18. We reject that the subject-nations of the thousand years are immortal. [The nations will consist of mortal men and women, subject to the laws of Jesus Christ — Isa. 65:20.]


19. We reject that the law of Moses is binding on believers of the gospel. [The Law being fulfilled in Jesus Christ, its demands are not binding upon Christ’s disciples, as they are now subject to his commandments — Heb. 8:13.]


20. We reject that the observance of Sunday is a matter of duty. [Although the “first day” is commonly used for remembrance of the Christ-covenant, there is no obligation to limit such observance to a Sunday. It is a matter of “as oft as we do so,” whatever the day — 1Cor. 11:25.]


21. We reject that baby sprinkling is a doctrine of Scripture. [Baptism is only valid upon a confession of understanding the complete Will and purpose of God. It is the outward manifestation of an inner conviction — Mark 16:16; Acts 8:12.]


22. We reject the doctrine - that those without knowledge - through personal choice, immaturity, or lack of mental capacity - will be saved

[Salvation is based upon a reasonable and logical understanding of the Truth; those who are foreign to the gospel, who lack the capacity to perceive its responsibilities; or who are unable to comprehend, are outside the sphere of salvation — Acts 8:12.]


23. We reject that man can be saved by morality or sincerity, without the gospel. [Morality and sincerity must be accompanied by an acknowledgement of the gospel for salvation — Acts 10:1-6.]


24. We reject that the gospel alone will save, without the obedience of Christ’s commandments. [Obedience to the commandments is a responsibility required of all believers; salvation will be determined upon the application of faith and obedience. Rev. 22:14; Mat. 7:26; 2Pet. 2:21; Mat. 28:20; Gal. 6:2]


25. We reject that a man cannot believe without possessing the Spirit of God. [In this case, the “Spirit of God” identifies a direct, miraculous influence from God in a person’s life. Belief comes from understanding the Word of Truth.]


26. We reject that men are pre-destined to salvation unconditionally. [Salvation is based upon a personal decision by a believer to uphold God’s Truth, and is dependent upon the grace of God — Eph. 2:8.]


27. We reject that there is no sin in the flesh. [The flesh is hereditarily related to sin, caused by the transgression of Adam, the effects of which have passed upon all men, including the Lord Jesus Christ — 2Cor. 5:21.]


28. We reject that Joseph was the actual father of Jesus. [Joseph was his guardian; Yahweh, through His Spirit acting on the virgin Mary, was his Father — Lk. 1:35.]


29. We reject that the earth will be destroyed. [The earth has been created for Yahweh’s glory, and will never be destroyed — Psa. 37:11; Num. 14:21.]


30. We reject that baptism is not necessary to salvation. [Baptism establishes a covenant-relationship, and is an act of obedience required for salvation — Acts 2:38.]


31. We reject that a knowledge of the Truth is not necessary to make baptism valid. [Baptism is only valid upon a knowledge of God’s revealed will and purpose, and an open declaration and confession thereof — Acts 8:12.]


32. We reject that some meats are to be refused on the score of uncleanness. [No foods are forbidden on the grounds of divine law or ceremonial defilement; such decisions are a matter of personal conscience — 1Cor. 6:11; Col. 2:16; Mk. 7:15.]


33. We reject that the English are the ten tribes of Israel, whose prosperity is a fulfilment of the promises made concerning Ephraim. [The ten tribes comprise the Jewish people in dispersion, descendants of Shem. The English people are descendants of Japheth, and do not form part of natural Israel — 1Pet. 1:1; Jas 1:1.]


34. We reject that marriage with an unbeliever is lawful. [Marriage with the unbeliever, or with a divorced person whose spouse is living, is forbidden by the law of Christ — 1Cor. 7:39; Mk. 10:8-12.]

35. We reject that we are at liberty to serve in the armed forces, in the police force, take part in jury duty or politics, or recover debts by legal coercion. [These constitute elements of society and its law-enforcement requirements, of which the believer will have no part. — Jn . 17:16]

36. We reject that Holy Spirit Gifts are available today. [These special and miraculous personal gifts were limited to the apostolic era, and are not manifested today — 1Cor. 13:8-10.]

37. We reject that the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ was not required for the cleansing of his sin nature. [The Lord's sacrifice was necessary for his own redemption. His sacrifice was a public demonstration that his flesh was rightly related to death and a declaration of the righteousness of God that required the offering of his life in devotion to Him. By his sacrifice the ungodly propensities (diabolos) of his nature was destroyed (Heb. 2:14; 9:12; 7:27), thus providing for the granting of immortality.

 38. We reject that the Bible account of creation is figurative, or parabolic, of a type of organic evolution in which all living things evolved from simpler varieties. [The record of Genesis 1-3 describes the literal work of God in creating this world and its creatures out of the previous void and chaos. Each day was a period of 24 hours duration, and does not permit an evolutionary process].

 For this reason error was angry with him, so she persecuted him. She was distressed by him, and she was made powerless. He was nailed to a tree.  He became a fruit of the knowledge of the father. He did not, however, destroy them because they ate of it. He rather caused those who ate of it to be joyful because of this discovery.

For this reason Jesus appeared; he put on that book; he was nailed to a tree; he published the edict of the Father on the cross. O such great teaching! He draws himself down to death, though life eternal clothes him. Having stripped himself of the perishable rags, he put on imperishability, which no one can possibly take away from him. Having entered the empty spaces of terrors, he passed through those who were stripped naked by oblivion, being knowledge and perfection, proclaiming the things that are in the heart, [...] teach those who will receive teaching.

 Not only (that, but) I have come to reveal to you the truth, which is within the brethren. He included himself in the living offering, together with your offspring. He offered them up as an offering to the All. For it is not cattle that you will offer up for sin(s) of unbelief, and for the ignorances, and (for) all the wicked deeds which they will do [...]. And they do not reach the Father of the All [...] the faith ...

I have offered up myself to you as an offering, together with those that are mine, to you yourself, (O) Father of the All, and those whom you love, who have come forth from you who are holy (and) living. And <according to> the perfect laws, I shall pronounce my name as I receive baptism now (and) forever, (as a name) among the living (and) holy names, and (now) in the waters. Amen."

(The Nag Hammadi Library Melchizedek)

Saturday, 5 December 2020

The Gnostic Nature of Jesus

The Gnostic Nature of Jesus
or
The None Docetic Gnostic Nature of Jesus





The gnosics had different views on the nature of Jesus one of those understandings is called docetism from the Greek dokein, “to seem.” Docetists took Paul literally when he said, in Romans 8:3, that Jesus came “in the likeness of sinful flesh.” Jesus only seemed to be a flesh-and-blood human, but in reality he was a spirit that had a merely phantasmal body.
Likeness
Gospel of Thomas (28) Jesus said: I stood in the midst of the world, and I appeared to them in the flesh. I found them all drunk; I found none of them thirsting, and my soul was afflicted for the sons of men; for they are blind in their heart, and they do not see that they came empty into the world, (and) empty they seek to leave the world again. But now they are drunk. When they have thrown off their wine, they will repent.

Paul used the word "likeness" to emphasise the sameness of the Lord's nature to that of our own; a complete physical identification with humankind (Heb. 2:14,17; 4:15, etc.).

Let us consider this. What about this "likeness"? Moses informs us (Gen. 5:3) that Adam begat a son in his own image and likeness. You would not say the word "likeness" means that Seth was, in any wise, different from Adam.

There is the word "image". Suppose the word "image" had been used in this remark of Paul's: "sent His Son in the image of the earthy nature". We should then have had this argument — "Ah, you see it is only the image; it is not the nature itself". Whereas, Paul says concerning ourselves in 1 Cor. 15:49: "We have borne the image of the earthy, and shall also bear the image of the heavenly". Shall we say we have not borne the earthy? Do not we bear the earthy? Yes. Therefore in apostolic language "earthy" and "the image of the earthy" mean the same thing. Upon the same principle, sinful flesh and the likeness of sinful flesh mean the same thing.

The truth of the matter does not depend upon the word "likeness" or any other single term, but upon the combination of statements made — which are all in language plain enough to be free from obscurity. At the same time, it has to be pointed out that the word "likeness" in the Greek has the force of resemblance so complete as to be sameness. This is illustrated in the statement that Jesus was made in "the likeness of men" (Phil. 2:7). The extent of the likeness is defined as extending to "all points" and "all things" (Paul's words — Heb. 2:17; 4:15). What can we say but that he was a man, and not the mere likeness of a man

Question How could Jesus have been made free from that sin which God laid upon him in his own nature, "made in the likeness of sinful flesh," if he had not died for himself as well as for us? 
Answer: He could not.
None Docetic Gnostic
Not all gnostics held this teaching some sects believed that Jesus was a man in the flesh:

Furthermore, they will say of him that he is unbegotten, though he has been begotten, (that) he does not eat, even though he eats, (that) he does not drink, even though he drinks, (that) he is uncircumcised, though he has been circumcised, (that) he is unfleshly, though he has come in the flesh, (that) he did not come to suffering, <though> he came to suffering, (that) he did not rise from the dead, <though> he arose from the dead. (The Nag Hammadi Library Melchizedek)

Here is a fragment from Basilides addressing this question. It demonstrates that early Christianity could have no qualms about attributing a deficit of goodness to Jesus while he was in the flesh:

Basilides, in Book 23 of his "Commentaries," writes

{Then, farther along, he adds:} A new-born baby, then, has never sinned before; or more precisely it has not actually committed any sins, but within itself it has the activity of sinning. Whenever it experiences suffering, it receives benefit, profiting by many unpleasant experiences. Just so, if by chance a grown man has not sinned by deed and yet suffers, he suffered the suffering for the same reason as the new-born baby: he has within him sinfulness, and the only reason he has not sinned (in deed) is because he has not had the occasion to do so. Thus not sinning cannot be imputed to him. Indeed, someone who intends to commit adultery is an adulterer even without succeeding in the act, and someone who intends to commit murder is a murderer even without being able to commit the act. Just so, if I see the aforementioned sinless person suffering despite having done no wrong, I must call that person evil by intent to sin. For I will say anything rather than call providence evil.

Nevertheless, let us suppose that you leave aside all these matters and set out to embarrass me by referring to certain figures, saying perhaps, "And consequently so-and-so must have sinned, since he suffered!" If you permit, I shall say that he did not sin, but was like the new-born baby that suffers. But if you press the argument, I shall say that any human being that you can name is human; God is righteous. For no one is pure of uncleanness, as someone once said. (Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 4.81.2-4.83.2)

Even the flesh of babies is considered to have the potential to sin and thereby will profit from suffering

This reminds us of the passage in the Epistle to the Hebrews that declares even Jesus Christ profited and learned as a result of suffering.

Hebrews 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

Here it seems Basilides is referring to the suffering of Jesus and quotes from the book of Job chapter 14 to show that Jesus did not sin but had our unclean human nature 

The quotations from the teachings of Basilides is very similar to the teachings of Dr. John Thomas in Elpis Israel 1884: 

Sin, I say, is a synonym for human nature. Hence, the flesh is invariably regarded as unclean. It is therefore written, "How can he be clean who is born of a woman?" (Job 25:4) "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one." (Job 14:4) "What is man that he should be clean? And he which is born of a woman that he should be righteous? Behold, God putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, who drinketh iniquity like water?" (Job 15:14-16) This view of sin in the flesh is enlightening in the things concerning Jesus. The apostle says, "God made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); and this he explains in another place by saying, that "He sent his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3) in the offering of his body once (Heb. 10:10,12,14). Sin could not have been condemned in the body of Jesus, if it had not existed there. His body was as unclean as the bodies of those for whom he died; for he was born of a woman, and "not one" can bring a clean body out of a defiled body; for "that", says Jesus himself, "which is born of the flesh is flesh" (John 3:6). (Elpis Israel)
Son of Man and Son of God
The nature of Jesus' humanity and divinity:

How did the Lord proclaim things while he existed in flesh and after he had revealed himself as Son of God? He lived in this place where you remain, speaking about the Law of Nature - but I call it 'Death'. Now the Son of God, Rheginos, was Son of Man. He embraced them both, possessing the humanity and the divinity, so that on the one hand he might vanquish death through his being Son of God, and that on the other through the Son of Man the restoration to the Pleroma might occur; because he was originally from above, a seed of Truth, before this structure had come into being. In this many dominions and divinities came into existence. (The Treatise on the Resurrection)

Here "flesh" is not a vehicle for a docetic Christ. Instead, the Treatise on the Resurrection describes Jesus tv onpici and speaks favorably about the flesh throughout. 

Distinct from other Valentinian texts, the Treatise on the Resurrection does not divide humanity into three classes: spiritual, psychical, and material. 

The second occurrence (47,S) refers to Rheginus, indicating that both he and the Lord possessed the same type of fleshly body. 
The Lamb of God
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1Peter 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

Fragment 10, on John 1:29 (In John 1:29, “The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, ‘Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!’”) John spoke the words, "Lamb of God" as a prophet, but the words, "who takes away the sin of the world" as more than a prophet. The first expression was spoken with reference to his body, the second with reference to Him who was in that body. The lamb is an imperfect member of the genus of sheep; the same being true of the body as compared with the one that dwells in it. Had he meant to attribute perfection to the body he would have spoken of a ram about to be sacrificed. (Heracleon: Fragments from his Commentary on the Gospel of John)

The lamb is a symbolic representation of the human nature assumed by Christ and subsequently sacrificed at the crucifixion

Heracleon also suggests that the phrase "lamb of God" refers to the physical form (body) of the Saviour, while the phrase "who takes away the sin of the world" indicates the being dwelling in that body the logos. The imperfection of the lamb in relation to other members of its species is relative to the imperfection of the body that harbours a perfect being such as the logos

The imperfection of the lamb does not reflect the perfection of the saviour's body in other words the body of the saviour does not have an immaculate nature. 

God "sent forth His Son made of a woman made under the law" (Gal. 4:4). Being made of a woman, he was of our nature -- our condemned and weak and mortal nature: but being begotten of God and not of man, he 13 was in character spotless "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners". Sin had hold of him in his nature, which inherited the sentence of death from Adam: but it had no hold of him in his character: for he always did those things that were pleasing to his Father. 

the character of Jesus was holy, harmless, undefiled, without spot, or blemish, or any such thing; but his flesh was like our flesh, in all its points—weak, emotional, and unclean. Had his flesh been like that of Angel-Elohim, which is consubstantial with the Eternal Spirit, it would have been unfit for the purpose of the Deity in his manifestation. Sin, whose wages is death, had to be condemned in the nature that had transgressed; a necessity that could only be accomplished by the Word becoming Adamic-Flesh, and not an immaculate nature.

According to Valentinian theologians, Jesus derived his animate "body" or essence from the Craftsman. His spiritual essence is the entire "church of the superior seed" (Excerpts of Theodotus 17:1) deriving from Wisdom (Sophia). That is why the angel told Mary, "The Holy Spirit (i.e. Wisdom) will come upon you and the power of the Most High (i.e. the Craftsman) will overshadow you" (Luke 1:35 cf. Refutation of Heresies 6:35:3-4, also Excerpt of Theodotus 60, Against Heresies 1:15:3). According to Ptolemy, the contributions from Wisdom (Sophia) and the Craftsman pass through Mary into Jesus "like water through a pipe" (Against Heresies 1:7:2). This human being is the "lamb of God" (John 1:26 cf. Fragments of Herakleon 10), that is, the one the "Father of All chose to obtain knowledge of himself" ( Against Heresies 1:15:3).

Jesus became closely identified with humanity by taking on a human body. His human body is seen as consubstantial with the Church.

The Baptism of Jesus
When he was thirty years old, he went to John the Baptist to be baptized (Luke 3:23). As soon as he went down into the water, "he came out laughing at everything (of this world), not because he considers it a trifle, but because he is full of contempt for it" (Gospel of Philip 71:3-15). The divine Savior, referred to as the "Spirit of the Thought of the Father", descended on him in the form of a dove (Matthew 3:16 and parallels cf. Against Heresies 1:7:2, 1:15:3, Excerpts of Theodotus 61:6, Refutation of Heresies 35:3) and the "Word became flesh" (John 1:14).

Jesus' baptism and the descent of the "Spirit" is his redemption (Gospel of Philip 70:34-36). Redemption was necessary even for Jesus so that "he might not be detained by the thought of the deficiency in which he was placed" (Excerpts of Theodotus 22:7 cf. also Tripartite Tractate 124:31-125:11). This is the true "virgin birth" and resurrection from the dead, for he was reborn of the virgin Spirit (cf. Gospel of Philip 70:34-71:7, Refutation of Heresies 35:5, Gospel of Philip 56:15-18).
The Redeemed Redeemer

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up both supplications and entreaties to him who was able to save him out of death, with strong crying and tears; (and having been heard because of his piety

The Father did not save him "from death" (A.V.), but "out of death" (Gk., eky Heb. 5:7). Death had to come before deliverance.

Hebrews 5:3 Because of this he is required as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sins.

Hebrews 7:27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews  9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

So he died for us; but did he not die for himself also? How otherwise could he have been made free from that sin which God laid upon him in sending him forth in the likeness of sinful flesh? Paul says that "he that is dead is freed from sin," and that "in that Christ died, he died unto sin once," being raised from the dead, death hath no more dominion over him (Rom. 6:7, 9, 10).

The fact that Jesus needed to be saved out of death means that he himself needed to be redeemed in many Gnostic books this is referred to as the Saved Saviour or the Redeemed Redeemer

Jesus revealed himself [at the] Jordan River as the fullness of heaven’s kingdom. The one [conceived] before all [71] was conceived again; the one anointed before was anointed again; the one redeemed redeemed others. (Gospel of Philip)

Ode 8:21 And you who were loved in the Beloved, and you who are kept in Him who lives, and you who are saved in Him who was saved. (Odes of Solomon)

Ode 42:18 May we also be saved with You, because You are our Savior. (Odes of Solomon)

And as for us, we are adepts at the Word. If we sin against it, we sin more than Gentiles. But if we surmount every sin, we shall receive the crown of victory, even as our Head was glorified by the Father. (The Interpretation of Knowledge)

So that we might not be in doubt in regard to the others, even the Son himself, who has the position of redeemer of the Totality, needed redemption as well, - he who had become man, - since he gave himself for each thing which we need, we in the flesh, who are his Church. Now, when he first received redemption from the word which had descended upon him, all the rest received redemption from him, namely those who had taken him to themselves. For those who received the one who had received (redemption) also received what was in him. (Tripartite Tractate)



"He ever liveth to make intercession" (Heb. 7:25); so by reason of his bearing of sin he is himself "saved out of death" (Heb. 5:7, R.V. marg.) "through death" (Heb. 2:14), "through the blood of the everlasting covenant" (13:20).


He included Himself in the Living Offering

he emitted himself and he relinquished his majesty, taking scorn in exchange for the name. For our sake he endured the scorn. he appeared in flesh. And the humiliated one has no equipment. He has no need of the glory that is not his; he has his own glory with the name, which is the Son. Now he came that we might become glorious through the humiliated one that dwells in the places of humiliation. And through him who was reproached we receive the forgiveness of sins. And through the one who was reproached and the one who was redeemed we receive grace. (The Interpretation of Knowledge) 



He included himself in the living offering, together with your offspring. He offered them up as an offering to the All. For it is not cattle that you will offer up for sin(s) of unbelief, and for the ignorances, and (for) all the wicked deeds which they will do [...]. And they do not reach the Father of the All [...] the faith ...... (20 lines unrecoverable) 
(The Nag Hammadi Library Melchizedek) 


... (2 lines unrecoverable)
... is the sacrifice of [...], whom Death deceived. When he died, he bound them with the natures which are leading them astray. Yet he offered up offerings [...] cattle, saying, "I gave them to Death, and the angels, and the [...] demons [...] living offering [...]. I have offered up myself to you as an offering, together with those that are mine, to you yourself, (O) Father of the All, and those whom you love, who have come forth from you who are holy (and) living. And <according to> the perfect laws, I shall pronounce my name as I receive baptism now (and) forever, (as a name) among the living (and) holy names, and (now) in the waters. Amen." (The Nag Hammadi Library Melchizedek) 


What does the text of Melchizedek mean when it says "He (Jesus) included himself in the living offering, together with your offspring. He offered them up as an offering to the All." 


The same idea is found later on in the text "I have offered up myself to you as an offering, together with those that are mine, to you yourself, (O) Father of the All" 


The interpretation of this is the Lord's sacrifice was necessary for his own redemption. His sacrifice was a public demonstration that his flesh was rightly related to death and a declaration of the righteousness of God that required the offering of his life in devotion to Him. By his sacrifice the ungodly propensities (diabolos) of his nature was destroyed (Heb. 2:14; 9:12; 7:27), thus providing for the granting of immortality. 


It was necessary that Jesus should offer for himself for the purging of his own nature, first, from the uncleanness of death, that having by his own blood obtained eternal redemption for himself, he might be able afterward to save to the uttermost those that come to God by him 

Summary
Certain Gnostics embrace the idea that Jesus had a physical body made of flesh
The human body is unavoidably, from birth, inbuilt with the “activity of sinning” without actually transgressing God's laws.
Jesus in the days of his flesh had our unclean nature from which he needed to be saved